Former US President Jimmy Carter belongs to a group of individuals who call themselves The Elders. This might seem mysterious or subversive; however, it’s not what you think.
“The Elders are an independent group of eminent global leaders, brought together by Nelson Mandela, who offer their collective influence and experience to support peace building, help address major causes of human suffering and promote the shared interests of humanity.”
Among The Elders are Nelson Mandela, Kofi Annan and Desmond Tutu. Incidentally, 5/12 of The Elders are women; which is quite encouraging to me.
Recently, The Elders issued a statement indicating their dedication to the issue of the equality of women within religion, worldwide.
“Religion and tradition are a great force for peace and progress around the world. However, as Elders, we believe that the justification of discrimination against women and girls on grounds of religion or tradition, as if it were prescribed by a higher authority, is unacceptable. We believe that women and girls share equal rights with men and boys in all aspects of life. We call upon all leaders to promote and protect equal rights for women and girls. We especially call on religious and traditional leaders to set an example and change all discriminatory practices within their own religions and traditions. The Elders are fully committed to the realisation of equality and empowerment of all women and girls.” — The Elders, 2 July 2009.
In keeping with this, Jimmy Carter issued a provocative and personal statement regarding his complete separation from the Southern Baptist Convention, of which he has been a part for over 60 years.
“I have been a practising Christian all my life and a deacon and Bible teacher for many years. My faith is a source of strength and comfort to me, as religious beliefs are to hundreds of millions of people around the world. So my decision to sever my ties with the Southern Baptist Convention, after six decades, was painful and difficult. It was, however, an unavoidable decision when th e convention’s leaders, quoting a few carefully selected Bible verses and claiming that Eve was created second to Adam and was responsible for original sin, ordained that women must be “subservient” to their husbands and prohibited from serving as deacons, pastors or chaplains in the military service. This was in conflict with my belief – confirmed in the holy scriptures – that we are all equal in the eyes of God.” — Jimmy Carter
I am encouraged and uplifted by Mr. Carter’s stance. I believe it is a step in the direction of wholeness and reconciliation for the SBC’s women, as well as for Christian women nationwide, and for women of all discriminatory faiths worldwide.
My friend Jeff McQuilkin, a fellow author here at Communitas, recently wrote a series on his personal blog about the discrimination against women in religion.
“For many years, I have supported the idea of the equality of women, and done what I felt was appropriate to live that out. But until recently, mine was a passive agreement. I thought it was enough to let women have a place, rather than going the extra step of making a place for them. — Jeff McQuilkin, Sexism by Default
I believe what Jeff is saying, in this quote and in the series as a whole, is that men in power must not only step aside and allow women into their place of equality in religion, but must step up and speak out, to be proactive in promoting the equality of women in religion. Ideally men must not be passive, but active, about this affirmation.
I believe this is precisely what Jimmy Carter has done.
I’m not idealistic; I fully realize that Mr. Carter’s statement will not change the practices of the SBC or other religious leadership that say women have second place to men. However, I do believe this statement contributes in a meaningful way to a reconciliation that we will see in the not too distant future.
It is not going to be overnight change; truthfully the fight for the overall equality of women is age-old. We have in recent decades seen the place of women rise closer to that place of equality, as we saw in the most recent US Presidential election, where a woman was a formidable contender for the first time ever, and I no longer believe this reconciliation to be elusive.
Thank you, Mr. Carter, for speaking out loud for what you believe, yet again, and bringing hope to another issue of justice and human rights. I applaud you. I hope and pray that other men in posistions of leadership will follow suit.
As with so many other religious issues, my views on this subject have changed dramatically over the years. But even when I was a fundamentalist (1980) I heard stories of women missionaries who had no choice but to assume roles of leadership–and were blessed as were their congregations. I remember being impressed by this at the time, even though this was in the context of discussion from the floor as our denomination voted once again to deny ordination of women. I left that denomination years ago. They still hold firmly to their traditional position. I was about to say that I haven’t been around many women pastors, but then I remembered how much I enjoy visiting Church of the Apostles in Seattle, pastored by Abbess Karen Ward. Her gender didn’t enter into my thinking at first, because to me, she was first and foremost a priest, a pastor, a shepherd, and a fellow pilgrim. As for The Elders, what an interesting concept. Elders for our global tribe. Jimmy Carter certainly ruffled feathers with his statements about the middle east situation, but I think he is still respected as an elder statesman and a strong proponent for peace and human dignity.
Part 1 Erin What is popular is not always truth. What is truth is not always popular. I wonder; If women seek to be ordained are they really looking for equality? Or are women looking for power, profit, prestige and prominence? Are women looking for honor from men and from women? Why not look for equality with Jesus? Isn’t Jesus to be our example? Didn’t Jesus make himself of no reputation, and take upon himself the form of a servant and humble himself? Php 2:7 Are their eyes on man and how man has decided to gain a reputation and not on Jesus? (What is Humble?) (Can you have a title and be humble?) When women are ordained by humans and receive, papers and titles, such as, reverend and pastor, are they receiving honor from man? Are women creating a reputation for themselves? Are women now no longer looking for Jesus to be their example? Are women now looking to man to be their example? Jesus Himself refused honor from men. Jesus declared in John 5:41; “I receive not honour from men.” He goes on to say, “ How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?” Jesus also declares, “If I honour myself, my honour is nothing…” John 8:54 When women greet each other with the use of titles are they receiving honour one of another? If that title is engraved on a business card or a door sign; are they honoring themselves and thus their honour is nothing? Doesn’t the Bible call graven images idols? Could a title be an idol? Doesn’t a title, with it’s power, profit, prestige and prominence, appeal to; “the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, which is not of the Father, but is of the world?” If women take a title are they looking for their own glory? Jesus said, “I seek not mine own glory…” John 8:50 “He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory…” John 7:18 If women take a title are they looking for the praise of men more than the praise of God? John 12:42-43 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: (congregation) For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. “The chief rulers” loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. Hmmm? Are there any women “chief rulers” around today? Are they looking for the praise of men? Are you a women wanting to be a leader? Why do women not believe Jesus when he said to His disciples in Mt 23, Neither be ye called masters: (leader) for one is your Master, (leader) even Christ.
part 2 The Interlinear Bible – Nor be called leaders, for one is your leader the Christ. Phillips Modern English – You must not let people call you leaders, you have only one leader, Christ. Today’s English Version – nor should you be called leader. your one and only leader is the Messiah. The Amplified – you must not be called masters (leaders) for you have one master (leader) the Christ. Jesus says, “if any man serve me, let him follow me.” John 12:26 Paul also says, “to serve the Lord Christ.” Colossians 3:24 Paul ( Romans 1:1), Jude ( Jude 1:1), Peter, ( 2 Peter 1:1 ), James ( James 1:1 ), They all call themselves – servants of Jesus Christ. None call themselves “leaders,” only servants. None? None. None call themselves “servant-leaders,” only servants. None? None. If Jesus told His disciples not to be called master/leader and a women calls herself a leader or thinks she is a leader; is that women a disciple? When those are your choices, leader or disciple, which one do you choose? And Jesus said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; (Is servant-leader a justification before men? Is servant-leader in the Bible?) but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:15 Have you ever wondered; What is highly esteemed among men? Have you ever wondered; What is highly esteemed among women? Could it be, power, profit, prestige and prominence? Could it be, “the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, which is not of the Father, but is of the world?” 1John 2:16 My apologies to the women who read this. I apologize for all the men who have done foolish things in the name of God. Jesus trusted at least five women to deliver the greatest message ever. He Is Risen. And Jesus upbraided His men disciples for their doubt and unbelief. Now, if you think that gives women the right to be called pastor, if the Bible is your standard, ask yourself these questions; How many people in the Bible are called pastor? How many people in the Bible have the title pastor? How many people in the Bible are ordained a pastor? How many congregations in the Bible are led by a pastor? In the defense of men – It’s not really our fault. The Bible says when God operated on Adam, “He caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam,” It never says He woke him up again. Please forgive us. Titles become idols and pastors become masters. Be blessed in your search for truth. In His Service. By His Grace.
Thanks Gary. I think what you said about not even thinking about Karen Ward’s gender is a key point. When we become “gender-blind” is when we have won. It think we’re getting there.
A. Amos Love: Once again I appreciate your thorough comment. I do think that seeking the praise of man is a problem for some people in leadership, both men and women. This is why I know so many people who have left the church system…when leaders begin relying on their own power, problems begin. I would ask you, however, if all the things you believe about women seeking leadership roles are true, why are those things not also true of men? Because in my experience they certainly are. I don’t believe that women seeking equality opportunity in leadership is seeking anything different that men do not already seek and hold. On the flip side, I know many leaders, both male and female who do not become egotistical with power, they only shepherd and care for others as they follow Christ. If you are saying we shouldn’t rely on anyone in leadership, I definitely agree, at least to a point. However, if such is true, then I would think all male leaders should step down and we should operate much more like a family than a hierarchy. If that isn’t going to happen, which I suspect it’s not, it would seem we would find more balance in leadership by allowing women into it in equal measure. Thank you for your thoughts!
hey Erin babee
I finally hauled my butt over here thanks for Jeff McQ, lol I am not for the ordination of women, or of anyone else for that matter, but I am for “in Christ there is no male or female,” which I think is at the heart of the issue. I have been told in the past by men that I must get my husband’s approval before posting my blogs. My husband laughed and said, “Good grief, I am not where you are yet, how the heck am I supposed to edit what God tells you???” I have been told my hair is too short, my clothing too male (which, since Jesus wore a dress, I am not sure where to go for a more feminine look except maybe into a bikini). Lemme see — um, oh yes, I have to post a warning on my blog so that only women will read it so I don’t accidentally sin by teaching a man who figures that because my name is Tyler, he is receiving teaching from a man. After all, he should know if he is being led astray by someone so easily deceived. Gosh, what else. I know I will think of more later. But that is probably enough, more than enough!
Erin – And I appreciate the time, effort and how you serve Christ with your diligence and faithfulness writing from and with your heart. It’s a lot of hard work and I thank you. You ask a good question; “I would ask you, however, if all the things you believe about women seeking leadership roles are true, why are those things not also true of men? “ Absolutly, bingo, you hit the nail on the head. If you go back to the third para. you’ll see I’m in agreement with you. This is primarily a rant about those, male and female, who are seeking power, profit, prestige, prominence, titles, leadership, etc. Those things that I now see as; “the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, which is not of the Father, but is of the world?” 1John 2:16 “Are their eyes on man and how man has decided to gain a reputation and not on Jesus? (What is Humble?) (Can you have a title and be humble?)“ Jesus made himself of “no reputation” and took on the form of a servant. Jesus asked His disciples not to be called master/leader and none did. Jesus said we are all brothers and sisters and he is the only master. Isn’t being a servant of Christ the highest calling there is? Can male and female disciples serve Christ equaly? No one has a problem with servants, male and female, serving, do they?. The question becomes; If you want to be a master and have power profit and prestige, are you a disciple of Christ? When they wanted to make Jesus a king, He refused. Hmmm? And He was already the King of Kings. Jesus exhibited powerlessness. Hmmm? And He had access to the greatest power and didn’t use it. Made Himself of no reputation. Hmmm? And He had the greatest reputation and refused to flaunt it. Took on the form of a servant. Hmmm? And He was the creator of the Universe and he chose to serve and lay down His life. Humbled Himself. Hmmm? What is humble? Can you have power, profit, prestige, leadership, titles and be humble? Is that what titles and leadership look like? Humble? Prestige is an interesting word. In Websters – it is the power to command admiration and esteem. It comes from a word that means “an illusion or a delusion.” Prestige is a power; but from which kingdom? Don’t titles, (reverend, pastor, elder,) create prestige? Don’t titles become idols and pastors become masters. And you have the beginning of spiritual abuse. If someone says to me their title is not an idol, I just reply, well if it’s not an idol then just get rid of it, lay it down, become a brother, become my equal. Have any guesses how well this request is received? Men and women with titles don’t care to be my equal a servant serving Christ. I read a book called, “In the Spirit We’re All Equal” yes, it was well researched and well written by a women who made a excellent case from scripture for equality for women in Christianity to use God’s gifts and be included in leadership rolls. This author also included many, if not all, her accomplishments in ministry, her schooling, her degrees, you know all those initials that people put on their business cards after their name to impress you, to create prestige, the illusion. I thought the book had a lot of merit but couldn’t shake this uncomfortable feeling of something not adding up. You know what I mean. That little cautious thing inside you that causes you to question; Lord, somethings wrong; Whats up? And I believe He said, ”She’s not looking for equality. She’s looking for recognition.” Hmmm? That changes the whole picture, doesn’t it? Most women I’ve met aren’t really looking for equality, it’s to be recognized. “Look at me,” “see what I can do,” “I can do it too,” “I can do it better,” It’s a malady that we, male and female, struggle with. To be somebody. To be recognized. The good news is; God loves you, knows you and recognizes all you do. She can have equality with me, a male, and be a servant of Christ. Not much recognition or resistance there from male “so called leaders.” No one having to step aside to allow women their place of equality. Plenty of room down here at the lower place at the table. Don’t like crowds much anyway. Be blessed in your search for Jesus. In His Service. By His Grace.
Dear Erin… As a lover & supporter of women (and men, for that matter)… I applaud this post and the words & actions of the “Elders”. Especially former President Carter! So A. Amos… I take it you’re in full support of Erin’s post too???
But seriously and with all due respect… A long playful rebuttal. You would do well to stay focused with your rant! You can’t give a disclaimer stating the desire for recognition is wrong and shared by both genders, but focus on females. It’s oozes a condescending attitude to me and I’m a male! But I am genuinely interested in your biblical thoughts on a woman’s role in the home & church. I’m just afraid it might be limited to cleaning the house, making dinner, babies, and the posters on the website your “title” links to… Hopefully I’m just kidding! 
And although I get your point and agree with you about “power & titles” corrupting both genders, I would keep the aim/blame where it belongs, on men. And leave women out of the rant. Throughout our history, the patriarchy model of organized religion and even politics for that matter, has done more harm in this world AND definitely has not EVER represented the loving and gracious “Male God” that you claim to serve! Just to be clear, I typed that as gently as I could. Concerning the Pure Essence of GOD… To not acknowledge the Divine Feminine attribute of a God that is Pure Spirit, leaves one with an inaccurate portrait of GOD! And concerning the Spirit of God dwelling in human flesh… It is as Tyler said, IN CHRIST, there is NO male or female! And that my friend, IS equality! Face it, using the bible to prove a “truth” that doesn’t set someone free, is NOT Christ’s truth at all. I will also add, it’s both archaic and barbaric. And pretty much demonstrates the male leadership of organized religion to date! About powerful biblical titles… First, in my humble opinion, almost all your assumptions about Jesus are incorrect. To start, you were kidding about Jesus being powerless, right? And he may have demonstrated proper humility, but his reputation and displaying his power is what got him crucified. And laying down his life was nothing for One that can raise it back up! Now I believe we are children of GOD and we’re commanded to be imitators of Christ. Empowered to make disciples… You can’t “go out and make disciples” if you don’t know who to lead them to. And that, is one of organized Christianity’s major failures. The Body of Christ needs powerful leaders, more now, than ever! Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, Peter, Paul and I even think there were a few token women in there, but they were Apostles, Prophets, Teachers, Elders, Deacons, etc… Titled AND Very Powerful… Now there are many more biblical accounts of powerful and prestigious men, and it is written, God that gave them their power. I would also point out that throughout our history of slavery, there have been many inhumane “christian masters” too numerous to count. All justified with scriptural blessing! Enough said on that subject! Now on to recognition… Come on A. Amos, confess… You are starving for recognition and to have YOUR wisdom be heard. And ya know what? here’s the good news… It’s normal & healthy for Children of GOD to be seen and heard by their Heavenly Father AND siblings, just like you stated. But because so many of God’s Children have been taught by corrupt and ignorant teachers of the law that recognition is wrong or even sinful… The church experiences the dysfunctional relationships between each other and GOD! So I extend the same blessing to you in YOUR search for Jesus… Don’t give up. Just remember, you have to die to find him!!! grace, peace & much love… t.f. btw… Good Job giving away the written word on your site!
Wow, some very interesting conversation. I think the only thing I will add is this: Women deserve to serve God in every way a man does, because women will bring to the table something men don’t. Not that there is anything wrong with what men bring to leadership, but in order to have a full picture of God, women must bring what they are created to be into leadership, as well. I believe this is how God intended it to be, and if Jesus is any example, his recognition of women, even in a much more patriarchal society than our own, should be evidence to us of God’s will on this subject.
Tom Thanks for the rebuttal. It gives you another opportunity to give recognition to my great wisdom. Thanks. ;- ) Those people who think they know it all really aggravate those of us who do. Right Tom? And I agree with you totally about everything you wrote except for those things where you totally missed the point. So I guess I’m forced to show you some mercy. ; – ) Isn’t christian love wonderful? Seriously, I appreciate you take on Jesus exhibiting powerlessness. I didn’t explain myself well at all. I’ll give that statement more thought. Jesus certainly exhibited power over the spirit realm. Healing the sick, casting out demons, raising the dead. In the natural he didn’t defend himself when lied about, He didn’t call down angels and went to the cross like a lamb led to slaughter. Powerlessness? Jesus said to his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Mat 16:24 What will our crucifixion’s look like? Will we be obedient to the Father when the lies, the slander, the rejection comes? Will we endure the shame and count it all joy? Jesus said, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. John 18:36 Would you agree that our calling is to lay down our lives, go thru the crucifixion and not demand our rights for the joy set before us? And yes, I am in full support of Erin’s post. And I am full support of Erin and women. What I‘m hoping is that women wouldn’t follow the men and what men have done to gain a reputation and recognition. Titles like Reverend and Doctor that are not even in the Bible. Following the traditions of men that make the word of God of non effect. That the women would go to Jesus Himself and hear and obey Him. Isn’t that what we should all do? Hear His voice and obey Jesus? Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee. Deuteronomy 4:36 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Luke 6:46 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: John 10:27 …Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. John 18:37 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you. Jeremiah 7:23 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. John 10:16 There shall be, One Fold, One Shepherd, One Voice. If Not Now, When? In His Service. By His Grace.
Thom, I used to agree, but no longer think that we need more powerful leaders: We need servants of God who point to the power of Jesus. A true servant makes makes disciples of Jesus and not followers of himself. I know you’re not suggesting that we supplant Jesus, but I think that’s the effect of powerful leaders. They tend to get in the way of Jesus. Paul addressed this very issue in Corinth. Amos makes a good point that the leaders of the NT churches were mostly anonymous. We tend to know more about the leaders who were dysfunctional. Is it really any different today? The problem with the contemporary church is that we are organized around dysfunctional leaders rather than unified by the Spirit. Huge Difference. If you’re going to get on the imitator thing indiscriminately, then I suggest that we start with Golgotha…. just kidding
…but I do have a hammer and some really big nails…. As far as the title thing goes, I don’t think the apostles and prophets were titling themselves as much as indicating their function in the body. I don’t recall the Apostle Paul ever appealing to the power of a title—as if a title could ever mean anything—but rather argued his right to be heard based on his fatherhood and his relationship with Jesus. Jesus loved Paul, Paul loved Jesus, and so Paul loved his children (the church). His power was in Christ’s love, not the title. So yes, there’s room in the church for women servants, especially since many men have never picked up the basin and towel. It has been reported that this is because many male leaders have both their hands full: One hand is holding a copy of their vision written into the margins of their bible and the other has a microphone. Apparently they can’t figure out which one to put down first and the ensuing confusion has caused a short circuit in their ability to understand Jesus.
Dear Erin… Thanks for graciously demonstrating ONE of the many talents a woman brings to the table: Cutting through male bullshit! You edited ALL my rambling to, two short paragraphs… Bravo!!!
Ya know what my other favorite female talent is? They may be crappy drivers, but they intuitively know when they are lost (especially when their husbands are driving), admit it, get directions and get to where they’re going. Men, on the other hand… 
Anyway, that’s a few reasons why I believe in female leadership! A. Amos… Thanks for having a sense of humor. And although I’m sure someone recognizes your great wisdom, it wasn’t me. Like you admitted… I am always right! ;D So while I appreciate mercy as much as anyone. I would rather you point out where I missed your point while you were waltzing through the bible, ranting about women in leadership that you totally support!!! 
But seriously, I know you don’t believe in titles but when you go off throwing down scripture like you do, I have to ask… Who are you preaching to, Preacher? You say you agree & support Erin’s post, women in leadership and even my rebuttal. So what IS your point we don’t understand? What are we to learn from your teaching? Just because the words Pastor, Doctor, etc… aren’t in the bible, we shouldn’t acknowledge Presidents, Heads of States, Kings & Queens? How about Mothers and Fathers? What’s next, X-rays, MRI’s & CAT Scans? They’re not in the bible either. I mean really, if someone is power trippin on their “title” and it’s driving you crazy, be a big boy (I’d crap if you were a woman) and suck it up and offer a little mercy! You can do it buddy, I believe in Ya… You offered it to me!!! grace, peace & love… t.f. Erin, let me guess what a female reply would be… Boys, be quiet and play nice… heehee… Short & sweet!
Dear Erin… Isn’t it just like men to fall off the topic? But I’m really hoping this site allows for true dialogue and it doesn’t appear we’re high-jacking your blog post. I suppose if we are, we can take it outside to tangle like real men!
David… Loved your “male leader” joke! I was thinking it’s always hard when you’ve shared a belief with someone and changed your position. I actually shared your current position, so a debate may prove futile. I’m personally not trying to persuade anyone to believe what works for me! So I’ll really try to briefly explain why your premise does not work for me anymore just to clarify my position. Quickly, the “title” thing is vanity. Chasing the wind! Next, The early church may have started in hiding but very quickly became a powerful force! And I know that the leaders of the NT church may be anonymous to us, but it’s stretching scripture to think they were anonymous to their community. Many are named (male & female) and recognized for their miraculous power (Spirit Filled, of course)! Which is my main point: Why “dysfunctional leaders” breed “dysfunctional followers” and where that dysfunction originates from. If I were to ask you in your church experience if you ever heard a leader pray: Father in Heaven, I beseech you to allow ME to do MY will, instead of yours and that you would cause your followers to follow ME instead of you, I promise I will never serve you Lord. in Jesus precious name… Amen! Have you heard that prayer? I say this so much it gets to be redundant: Their prayers are totally the opposite. So why does God NOT honor their request? Because She already did!!! 
I apologize if this sounds arrogant, but they simply do not understand what Paul meant to “Walk In The Spirit” or be “Partakers In the Divine Nature” as Peter calls it. So if they don’t understand it, how can they teach it? I humbly offer this truth: Understanding our New Nature is the only way to imitate Christ and demonstrate Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Yadda Yadda… It even removes the fear and provides courage to “take the nails” if required, as you suggest. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts! grace&peace… t.f.
I appreciate the lively discussion and have no problem with it continuing as long as it remains civil. I do believe that men are a big part of the problem…and I don’t specifically mean any men in this present conversation, but the men in general who are of the attitude that women should be allowed to lead, but do nothing about it. Because in a great percentage of church, men hold the positions of power; if they only give lipservice to the idea that women could or should hold leadership positions, but take no steps to make that equality happen, they are just as bad as the the men who believe women have a place, just not in leadership, or only in leadership of other women. That is why these words by Jimmy Carter are so important. Men who hold influential positions need to use them to advocate for allowing women into equality.
Erin, Thom and David, part- 1 I’m enjoying the communion, koinonia, fellowship. Doing this in remembrance of Jesus. And causing me to think. Remembering His death, burial and resurection until he comes. May Jesus be glorified in all our stumblings and wanderings. Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. Malachi 3:16 Erin You wrote in your post. “I’m not idealistic; I fully realize that Mr. Carter’s statement will not change the practices of the SBC or other religious leadership that say women have second place to men.” And in your comment of Aug 2, “Women deserve to serve God in every way a man does, because women will bring to the table something men don’t. Not that there is anything wrong with what men bring to leadership, but in order to have a full picture of God, women must bring what they are created to be into leadership, as well. “ SBC – Leadership – Religious system – Traditions of men. This is how I’m seeing it now. I do reserve the right to be wrong. I’ve changed my mind a few times after I knew I really knew it all. {;o) We are warned that some will preach another Jesus. Do you think some preach another ekklesia? A false ekklesia, where man is in control and not Jesus in control? Jesus is the head of the body the church. Do not be called master/leader for you have one leader the Christ. 1st Samuel chapter 8 is about God’s people rejecting God’s leadership for that of a man, A King, to be like the other people. God was not happy but he gave them what they wanted and said to Samuel; “they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that “I should not reign over them.” God’s people did not want God to “reign” over them. Can you see or think of any differences between The Kingdom of “God;” The rule, the “reign,’ the dominion of “God” ruling in a man’s heart. and The Kingdom of “Baptist;” (or any instituotional organization.) The rule, “reign,” dominion of “Baptist” ruling a man? Can you see or think of any any differences between “The Church of God,” The ekklesia, the called out ones, the people of God. “and they shall all be taught of God” John 6:45 and “The Church of Baptist?” Steeple Corporation, brick and mortar, pastors in pulpits preaching to people in pews.
Part – 2 1-“The Church of God,” (the ekklesia, us,) is purchased with His blood. 1-“The Church of Baptist” (or what ever name) (Church of Man, Lutheran, etc) purchases us with things that are of the world. Fear, flattery, security, friends, etc. Those things that feed the flesh. Power, profit, prestige, salary, retirement, flattery, invitations to speak, titles, etc. 2-“The Church of God” is built and added to by Jesus. I will build my church… Matthew 16:18 And the Lord added to the church daily those who should be saved. Acts 2:47 2-“The Church of Baptist” is built by man. With programs, seminaries, conventions, crusades, tithes and offerings sermons, guilt and commitment sermons, bring your neighbor to church sermons, etc. 3-“The kingdom of God” comes not with observation, it is “within” hidden. It is the rule, the “reign,” the dominion, the goverment of God in one’s heart. This government shall be upon Jesus’ shoulders. 3- “The kingdom of Baptist” is “without,” names on church buildings, schools, credentials, diplomas, business cards, phone books, written “I believes,” rules and regulations, how to dress, how to speak, where it can be “seen.” “…let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name…” Gen 11:9 It is the rule, the “reign,” the dominion, the goverment of Baptists. This government shall be upon Southern Baptists Conventions shoulders. 4- In “The Church of God” you serve one master, Jesus, and we are one, bretheran. The Lord is our shephered and we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture. None call themselves leader or shepherd. All are one in Christ, bretheran. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. John 10:16 There is, One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd. 4- In “The Church of Baptist” you serve many masters, some more equal than others. You have hierarchy, local leaders, youth leaders, church leaders, board leaders, district leaders, denominational leaders. You have, leaders – followers, clergy – laity, shepherds – sheep, And you have separation. You have some lording it over others. You have the beginning of spiritual abuse. There are many voices – many shepherds – many leaders. Have they rejected God, that God should not “reign” over them? For “the leaders” of this people cause thee to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed. Isaiah 9:16 O my people, “they which lead thee” cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. Isaiah 3:12 My people hath been lost sheep: “their shepherds” have caused them to go astray… Jeremiah 50:6 Let me not, I pray you, accept any man’s person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man. For I know not to give flattering titles… Job 32:21 Titles become idols and pastors become masters. Erin Aren’t you called an ambassador of Christ? Now then we are ambassadors for Christ… 2 Corinthians 5:20 Ambassador – websters dictionary, The highest diplomatic representation that one soverign power sends to another. Since God is the most soverign and you are His ambassador, His highest diplomatic representation on earth. There is none higher then you in the church, the ekklesia. No pastor, no elder, no deacon, no leader. There is one above you, Jesus. In Christ there is, One Voice, One Fold, One Shepherd. If not now, When? Be blessed. In His Service. By His Grace.
Thom – You wrote, “It is as Tyler said, IN CHRIST, there is NO male or female! And that my friend, IS equality! “ First, thank you for being my friend. Blessings. Here’s the whole verse. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Galations 3:28 KJV Is this verse saying male and female are equal? Could be. Or could this verse be saying male and female have given up their “title,” given up thier “identity” with the world and become one in Christ! A kingdom not of this world. Could this verse be saying male and female do not exist in Christ? Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, do not exist in Christ because we are all one in Christ and He is the only head. The only master/leader. And he is the head of the body, the church… (Church=Ekklesia – called out one’s, people.) Col 1:18 In Christ, in the body, we are not “male nor female,” we are Kings and Priests unto God. we are brides, servants and sons, (transgender?) we are ambassadors and disciples of Christ, we are servants of Christ and Christ is our only master/leader. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:12 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. John 17:21 If you’re in Christ; is there male and female? Or are we one body? And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. John 10:16 There shall be, One Fold, One Shepherd, One Voice. If Not Now, When? In His Service. By His Grace.
Thanks Erin for hosting this “lively discussion” and I second your call for male leadership to demonstrate their support of women by welcoming them to use their considerable Spirit Given talents to serve at every level WE have created in the structure WE call church!!!
A. Amos… The feeling for you is mutual… Blessings to you! As usual, you leave a lot to sort through, and I concede, so do I! So this time I’ll be brief… It IS as you say: One Body, Many Members, ALL necessary to function Together. None greater, including the head! As always… grace, peace & much love… t.f.
David I really enjoyed some of your statements and how you worded them. “I think that’s the effect of powerful leaders. They tend to get in the way of Jesus.” That’s been my experience too. Thought I was a leader once myself. ouch. { ; o (…. Had a friend who said something similar. Oh yea, a women friend, who taught me a lot. A very special lady. Or was it the Christ in her doing the teaching? She had an interesting view of these things. She would say about pastors and leaders, “They keep trying to get between me and my God.” “They don’t take “no” very well, Do they?” When I heard her say that one I didn’t know her well but I knew we would soon become friends. We are to trust and obey Jesus, not man. “It’s trust and obey, not think and decide.” You wrote, “The problem with the contemporary church is that we are organized around dysfunctional leaders rather than unified by the Spirit.” Excellent way of saying it. Can I borrow that gem? You wrote, “I don’t think the apostles and prophets were titling themselves as much as indicating their function in the body.” Yes – A function of the body of Christ. Neither male nor female but one in Christ. Sometimes we’re sent ones, (apostles) Sometimes we’re moved by the Spirit of God and become His spokesman. (prophets) Sometimes we bring the gospel. The good news of Christ. (evangelists) Sometimes we feed God’s sheep and guide them to still waters. (pastors-shepherds) Sometimes we are disciples of Christ teaching what Jesus commanded. (teachers) You wrote, “So yes, there’s room in the church for women servants, especially since many men have never picked up the basin and towel. It has been reported that this is because many male leaders have both their hands full: One hand is holding a copy of their vision written into the margins of their bible and the other has a microphone. Apparently they can’t figure out which one to put down first and the ensuing confusion has caused a short circuit in their ability to understand Jesus.” Priceless – LOL, emails going to all my friends. Be Blessed.
Erin, I agree that the words of Jimmy Carter are important and perhaps the institution can be shamed into regaining their sense, but I don’t think that men are 100% blame for the situation in the SBC. Apparently men have been given the power in the SBC but God didn’t give that to them. Every dollar donated, every hour serving the church, every moment listening to the male preachers gives them that power. The membership gives them that power. The women membership give them that power. Men only have the power that the women give them. No one has authority over you unless you give it to them. What would happen if all of that was withheld? Its not simple or easy but “choose today who you will serve”. You will loose respect, relationships, position, and any power you thought you did have; but if you go, you will gain freedom, the power that only comes from Christ, and the opportunity to experience true body life. Men can not stand up and change the tide because women have given power to the church to maintain the status quo. As long as women choose to believe that there is no salvation outside of the SBC they will continue in slavery. I’m not trying to shift the blame but it does take two to tango. Yeah, the above is overly simplistic, lacking in compassion, probably full of serious issues; but can you imagine an institution completely filled with men only. It would become an archaic club. Women could bring the whole thing to its knees. What could a few influential men to do? Nothing. The SBC would just label them as liberals and enlist the support of an influential club member. If half the membership would disappear to follow Jesus, now that would impact. For me it comes down to this: Is Jesus asking us to overhaul an institution(s) posing as a church or to be the church in a way that demonstrates his power and love? Its telling that Jesus gave his disciples all power, but it was not to exercise leadership in the temple/synagogue: it was power to make disciples of the one Shepherd. There is one caveat, there are those in the SBC, women, who have spent their entire lives under the thumb of some sort of male abuse (not necessarily church related). They live in fear, and shame, and guilt and do not have the where-with-all to move on to safer places or to even identify safety. Their weakness is exploited by male leadership for personal gain. It would be wrong to leave the weak. I don’t have an answer for this any more than I really have an answer to anything at all—but I do know this one thing—When Jesus calls, its time to move on.
I suppose I ought to make a differentiation. I, myself, am not part of any religious institution. Therefore, this statement Mr. Carter made doesn’t impact me, personally. I at this point in time will never again choose to be a part of a church that does not value or practice the equality of women. However, for my sisters at the SBC and, to be clear this is not only about the SBC but MANY denominations, yes…there are many women who tolerate inequality, only because they have been taught, and wholeheartedly believe, they have no other choice. It’s not only those who have been blatantly abused, but many/most women. Most are residents of the camp that women are the cause of the fall and therefore inherently evil. Women should raise children. Women should be subservient to men because that is their “covering”. If they are out from under their “cover” they will have no protection from evil. Etc…I could go on and on with the erroneous beliefs that have been drilled into them…us. Even were they to want to seek a place in leadership, all the men around them, Pastors, husbands, fathers, will press them down back into the “good Christian woman” role. They will not even, ever, be given a chance. Should they walk away? Sure, in theory. However, having been there, I know in practice that is an astronomical task. They would have to leave their husbands, children, friends, posssibly the only church they have ever known, in order to do that. Unless they are fortunate enough be single or to have a husband who is strongly supportive of women in leadership and will walk away with them, it’s virtually impossible. So it’s not as simple as the women just putting their foot down and refusing to tolerate it. And we shouldn’t have to. We should be extended a hand up, supported by men who have the power and voice to say “this isn’t right and it won’t continue.” And while I may be one who believes that most church denominational institutions are faulty beyond repair, I am not naive enough to think that they are going to fall apart anytime soon. So we must address the issue of justice and equality for women within their walls as long as they remain.