I’ve been helping with churchrater.com, a website where anyone and everyone can post their rating of any church in the US.
This week ChurchRater was featured on Seattle’s King5 news and written about in the Seattle Times.
This publicity has brought more more feedback, some of it negative. Christians are worried that ChurchRater will damage the church and nothing good can come out of it.
I know you don’t all participate in church anymore, but even so, what do you think? Is ChurchRater likely to hurt or help churches?
I won’t take it personally if you don’t approve of it so fire away.
Of course it might hurt some churches–and those might be the ones who are worried. But really, finding out that your expression of church isn’t cutting it should actually be a good thing. If churches really want to make a difference in their community, they will be open to finding out how to better accomplish this task.
As a Canadian, and not really looking too hard at the moment for four walls, it probably won’t affect me much. And it probably won’t really be too beneficial for the family that is ‘church shopping’, looking for the ‘perfect’ church. But I expect it would be quite helpful for a person who truly wants to find a place where the structure and purpose resonate with their own heart.
Thanks for your comment, Al.
For something a bit more international (UK-based but rating churches from all over the world), try this: http://www.ship-of-fools.com/mystery/index.html
Barry, thanks for the link. I’ve seen that site and I was quite surprised to find a church four blocks from my house on there, since it’s a UK site. As you say it clearly does include ratings from all around the world.
It’s likely that we’ll add the capability to rate churches from other countries. We’re adding features to the site as we’re able.
Helen,
I’m not really clear on what you mean when you ask if it could hurt churches. How could it hurt them?
Hi Benjamin, it’s nice to see you here!
As for how ChurchRater could hurt churches, well, the same way public criticism could hurt any institution or person. If you google churchrater you’ll see what people are saying about it.
It’s interesting that implicitly the people who express concerns about what Christians will post on ChurchRater are showing they have a very low opinion of Christians. (Just to clarify, ChurchRater is open to anyone to post, not just Christians)
Helen – Sounds like a fun Job. I do have a bone to pick.
Hmmm? ChurchRater?
Just my humble opinion…
Don’t think anyone is capable of rating “the Church of God.”
In the USA they are only rating government approved,
501 (c) 3, non profit, tax $ deductible, religious corporations. UUUGGGHHH.
When I use the word “Church” I have to explain to folks what “Church” means.
In the NT it’s always the Greek “ekklesia” Ek = out of. Kaleo = to call.
It always refers to “people called out” of one place to another, an assembly.
“Ekklesia,” in the Bible, never refered to a building, an institution,
an organization, a denomination, or a corporation.
Should we call a corporation, “The Church of God?” AAARRRGGGHHHH!!!
No, No, No, – Jesus is the “only” head of the body,
(the ekklesia, the called out one’s) “The Church.” Church = Body of Christ
“The Lord” added to “the church” daily such as should be saved.
Acts 2:47
Not slick marketing. Not man. Not good ideas. Not pleasing man.
Not a good service, friendly people and a good speaker. Oy Vey!
When Jesus gets your mind and your heart
you can’t “Go to a Church” You become “The Chruch,” the ekklesia.
How can you “rate” “The Church of God?”
Church = Ekklesia, called out one’s, assembly.
Church = God’s people – always
Church = Kings and Priests unto God
Church = The Bride of Christ
Church = The Servants of Christ
Church = The sons of God – Led by the spirit? Or led by man?
Church = Disciples of Christ – Learners and students of Christ.
Church = Ambassadors for Christ. Messengers obeying Jesus.
How does, believer or non believer, walk into an “entertainment center”
and “Rate” “The Church of God” sitting in the seats?
How can you “rate” someone’s walk with God?
Hmmm?
Nah! – Don’t think anyone is capable of rating “the Church of God.”
When you do this rating stuff, you just continue to “perpatraet the myth”
that a building, an institution, a corportion is “The Church.”
And remember, Life is often a “Myth.”
Often a Mythstake. Often a Mythtory. Often a Mythconception.
For previous “rants” about the word “Church” on CC go to #6.
http://communitascollective.com/havetogo/#comments
Don’t have too much fun…
Thanks for your comment, Amos.
I see what you’re saying but in reality people refer to the Sunday service in a building as ‘church’ and that’s the sense in which we’re using it. I respect your opinion but I don’t agree it’s perpetrating a myth to use a word in a way in which its already very commonly used. I don’t think one website could change the way people use the word ‘church’. And it doesn’t bother me that people use the word that way, anyway. Lots of words have multiple meanings. If you talk about a class at school you might be referring to the physical space or the curriculum or the students or the teacher.
Helen
You design websites. Yes? As a graphic artist and designer
almost every time you open an existing page to check it out
you will probably notice many “little” thing that needs fixin.
I would look and think this is wonderful, beautiful, and it works.
You look and see the smallest detail that needs fixin.
Sticks out like the proverbial “sore thumb” to you.
To me, the word “church” is no small matter.
And the way it is often used,
to refer to a tax $ deductible, Religious Corporation. Hurts… ;-(
(nails scratching on chalkboards) Mercy Lord…
It is NOT “The Church” refered to in the Bible, and it often,
very often, “wounds and abuses” those who participate in it’s wiles.
There is much controll and manipulation not seen in the service.
The Sunday morning service is just the show, the entertainment.
It’s not the truth of that organization.
I consult with many folks who have been **burnt** **burnt out**
**kicked out** **craweled out** of “The religious Corporation Church.”
With it’s “submission to authority,” “Tithes and offerings,”
and other “heavy weights” placed on peoples shoulders.
Some have struggled for years to make sense of what happened.
I struggled for years.
It is dangerous and harmful lie (system) not to be taken lightly.
Much abuse, pain and tears, suffered by many.
Just check with the other writers at CC.
Isn’t this the reason for this site?
People just can’t do it “The Religious Corporatio Church” way anymore.
Words have meaning. IMHO - It’s not a little thing.
The “Truth” sets people free.
The truth and correction has to start with someone, somewhere.
For now I’ll stand by my previous thought.
“When you do this rating stuff, you just continue to “perpatraet the myth”
that a building, an institution, a corportion is “The Church.”
Be blessed.
Hi Amos,
Are you interested in have a conversation about church, or are you interested in lecturing Helen? Now Helen is a good friend of mine, would you speak to either of us like this in real life? I helped start churchrater.com precisely because I wanted to promote dialogue about the way church is done. And not in the consumeristic way you are perceiving. The churchrater team is trying to create a national conversation about church. Why are there fog machines in church? Why do some churches seem like rock concerts? Why are Christians so mean to other Christians and “outsiders”?
We can’t do this alone, churchrater.com is only a handful of people. But we created a democratic tool to invite the whole world to have this conversation with us. Democracy also mean you can’t control it 100%, merely guide it with foundational principals. I can’t control what people say, but I will work day and night to guide the conversation to what is actually important about church. (God’s children and Christ’s poor)
Have you even looked at the site? People tell some pretty amazing interesting about their churches, I was especially touched by this one (http://bit.ly/c53TOd). A lot of people are actually doing the exact opposite of creating this consumeristic model of church. They are sharing stories about what the “children of God,” are doing in their communities (http://bit.ly/a5Eqbo).
I would love to continue this conversation, but I must ask for some of the very virtue you are pointing to about “what church is” when talking to us.
Hi TylerM
Appreciate your standing up for Helen. Chivalry lives. Praise God.
FYI – Helen and I are not strangers. We’ve communicated in the past.
IMO – She has taken a courageous stand participating here, since
“she is not currently living a faith-based life and that makes her an outsider”
It seems Helen has been thorugh some religious wars and is still standing.
Kudos and congradulations to Helen.
Don’t know if you read her post or not but she asked…
“I know you don’t all participate in church anymore,
but even so, what do you think?
Is ChurchRater likely to hurt or help churches?
I won’t take it personally if you don’t approve of it so fire away.”
Seems Helen wanted to know and asked, “what do you think” from folks.
And wanted to know “if you don’t approve of it so fire away.”
Yet, you seem to challenge and disparage comments not to your liking. ;-(
“Are you interested in have a conversation about church,
or are you interested in lecturing Helen?
Now Helen is a good friend of mine,
would you speak to either of us like this in real life?”
Yes! If asked in person “what I thought” about “The Church”
I would probably answer in a similar way. Or harsher, most likely.
Very little patience with “The Corrupt Religious System” and it’s abuse.
Is there ever an excuse for abuse?
Much abuse is going on in the corporations you are “Rating.”
And depending on the time available would add a lot more
about “The Traditions of Men” that infect these corporations
that masqarade as something established by God.
And put so many into spiritual bondage and nullify God’s word.
Yes, I have been to your site before. You did a nice job. Interesting source for info.
“I don’t approve” because what you call “Church,” a corporation run by man.
And what I call “Church,” the body of Christ, just ain’t the same thing.
And I would think God will do His own “Rating” of his ekklesia.
IMHO – What you are rating are corporations and entertainment centers.
Just learning to call them as they are. Corporations. Corrupt.
Might find some nice folks and some miracle stories here and there,
But, It’s not “The Church of God.” It’s a “Corrupt Religious System.”
I would love to continue this conversation, (it’s a favorite topic)
and I don’t ask for any of “the very virtue you are pointing to.”
You can speak to me any way you think fit. Just be yourself.
I’ve already been misaligned, misinterpreted, lied about,
put down, and called names, by those who don’t like honest discourse.
Those gaining honor and $ because of a “Corrupt Religious sytem”
don’t take to kindly to those pointing out “Twisted Scriptures”
and “out rite lies” to pew sitters who are asked to just, “Pay, Pray and Obey.”
So yes, I am intrested in a conversation about “church.”
Love to hear from you.
Be blessed in you search for truth… Jesus.
Amos, I did ask for criticism of ChurchRater as well as praise, as you pointed out.
Since you think the church as an institution is corrupt and ChurchRater aims to improve the church, it seems like we could both be on the same side, if it weren’t for your issue with the way the word ‘church’ is commonly used and also used by us.
I don’t think it’s the way the word church has been used which has hurt people – I think it’s what has been done to them which has hurt them.
That’s what I don’t think changing the way the word is used would make any difference.
But hopefully, constructive feedback which helps churches treat people better (amongst other things) could make a difference.
Helen
You write…
“ChurchRater aims to improve the church, it seems like we could both be on the same side”
That would be nice. Really. From what you and TylerM are saying
you know”something” is wrong with “the Church” that you see.
You and I agree that there is “something” wrong.
Tyler thinks it’s; fog machines, rock concerts and mean christians.
By having dialog about how to “Do Church” things will get better.
This is where we part company.
No one ever “did church” in the Bible, they became “The Church of God.”
The body of Christ, the ekklesia, the called out one’s, God’s people.
Jesus didn’t “improve” “The Religious System” of His day.
HE LEFT IT.
And that was the system he set up. Those were His Priests he condemned.
And He called “His disciples” out also. Into a relationship with Jesus.
He left “The Religious System” and “The Religious Leaders”
that turned His fathers house into a den of theives. Mat 21:13
You and Tyler seem to recognise it has become a den of thieves.At least people off course.
But now what? What is to be done with the worldliness that is everywhere,
deceiving many and masquerading as God’s purpose today.
Jesus, when confronted by “The Religious System”
Jesus criticized the religious leaders, Jesus called them names,
Jesus made fun of them, and Jesus warned the people to beware of them.
He called “The Religious Leaders;” whited sepulchres, full of dead mens bones,
and of all uncleanness, (impure motives), generation of vipers, (cunning, wicked men),
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. ouch!!!
John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth,
because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own:
for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Hmmm/ Doesn’t sound very “nice” does it.
Thank you Jesus.
The only folks Jesus was upset with were “The Religious Leaders.”
He hung out with the sinners, wine bibbers and tax collectors.
His “Religious Leaders” had become “corrupt” and Jesus warned the people.
Corrupt – dictionarey…
1- Having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly
in return for money or personal gain.
2- Of organic or inorganic matter in a state of decay; rotten or putrid.
***“The Religious Leaders” had acquired much
Power, profit, prestige, honor, reputation, recognition, importance, etc.
All in the name of God. Oy Vey!!!
All those things Jesus spoke against.
Jesus said in luke 16:15…
…that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
What is highly esteemed among “church” men, in “Christianity,” in your “steeple corporations?”
Power, profit, prestige, honor, reputation, recognition, importance, leadership positions, etc.
Not much different today, is it?
Sure is a fun journey. Just a few pot holes along the way.
TylerM
Still interested in communicating with you about “church.”
Took another look at the site and the examples you recomended.
The first was about a women whose “passport had expired” and
needed to get married in a different state because the laws
in her husbands state wouldn’t allow it. And they had to get married fast.
They met a nice orthodox priest, a father, who helped them. Hmmm?
The other was about a “Steeple Corporation” that didn’t have
a building or a steeple yet. Only had a good idea. Hmmm?
Found this on your bio on ChurchRater site.
Your Church Relationship
Church Leader
I have some question’s about the use of the word “leader.”
The word “leader” seems like a “high place.” Yes?
Jesus always took and recommended the “low place.” Yes?
Jesus humbled Himself, made himself of no reputation
and took on the form of a servant. Php 2:7
How do “you” reconcile the use of the word “leader”
when “Jesus” told “His disciples” not to be called “leader?”
Jesus in Mat 23:10 told His disciples “NOT” to call
themselves master/“leaders”
for you have one master/”leader” the Christ.
King James Version –
Neither be ye called masters:
for one is your Master, even Christ.
The Interlinear Bible –
Nor be called leaders,
for one is your leader the Christ.
Phillips Modern English –
you must not let people call you leaders,
you have only one leader, Christ.
Today’s English Version –
nor should you be called leader.
your one and only leader is the Messiah.
The Amplified-
you must not be called masters ( leaders )
for you have one master ( leader ) the Christ.
Jesus told His disciples not to be called “leaders” and none did.
Ro 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ,
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ,
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant
His disciples all called themselves “servants,”
none called themselves “leaders.” None? None.
None called themselves “servant-leader.” None.
Every “servant-leader” I’ve met… eventually…
became the “Leader” of all the servants… Yes?
If Jesus instructed “His disciples” NOT to call themselves leaders
and someone calls themself a “leader”
or thinks they are a “leader;”
Are they a “disciple of Christ?”
Just wondering. Be blessed.